<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1284</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	10/30/99 10:54:25 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Sunday, October 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 1284<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
THUDDD deadline(s)<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Interactive fiction<BR>
Niven universes<BR>
Niven universes<BR>
Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
[OT] Who's that knocking on my door? (was Re: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
Re: Niven universes<BR>
Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Niven universes<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace <BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace 2<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: [OT] Who's that knocking on my door? (was Re: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump drives (was Re: Just say "no" to lhyd))<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: The Alderson Drive -<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:04:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD deadline(s)<BR>
<BR>
Due to circumstances beyond my control, the submission (and other)<BR>
deadline(s) will be extended 3 days.  New closing is 12:00 midnight PDT on<BR>
11/3/99.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you,<BR>
<BR>
Jason Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:14:44 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
>Canada is still not a valid comparison.  There are still major cultural<BR>
>differences.  Biggest one.  What is the greatest hero ingrained in the two<BR>
>cultures?  Cowboys for US, RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) for Canada.<BR>
>Two entirely different cultural icons that affect the very roots of the two<BR>
>cultures outlooks.  The cowboy always "took care of business", while the<BR>
>Mountie was there to protect you.  The gun is deeply ingrained in the<BR>
>American culture, dating back to the War for Independance.<BR>
<BR>
This is probably true.<BR>
<BR>
>WITHIN the US, those states that moved to a "shall-issue" concealed carry<BR>
>permit system have always shown significant drops in assault, rape, murder,<BR>
>etc., while those municipalities and states that outright ban weapons always<BR>
>tend to have the highest murder rates.  Washington DC & New York City are<BR>
>prime examples.  Handguns are ILLEGAL in both, yet DC was the murder capitol<BR>
>of the US for many years. <BR>
<BR>
Bans on weapons in an area that has at the same time no restrictions on<BR>
movement of people and goods is meaningless. A ban on guns in Washington <BR>
DC is meaningless if people are able to purchase guns in the neighbouring<BR>
states of Maryland and Virginia, for example. In NYC, they can cross the<BR>
river into New Jersey. Since there are no inter-state border patrols to<BR>
prevent people moving goods from one state to another, a ban on guns at<BR>
anything less than the national level is of absolutely no use whatsoever.<BR>
<BR>
Note: I am not advocating such a ban (ie, at the national level) since I<BR>
don't live there in the first place... :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:17:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interactive fiction<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If anyone out there remembers the old days of "interactive fiction," <BR>
> (Adventure, Zork, etc), I have finished the logic for an IF walkthrough <BR>
> of a Type S scout/courrier. If anyone has really good descriptions of <BR>
> any of the rooms they would like included in this exercise, let me know. <BR>
> You can now enter through the airlock, walk around the ship, and open <BR>
> and close doors. Ideas for developing this into something more <BR>
> interesting will also be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
I recall a BBS back in the mid-80s. The sysop had taken an adventure<BR>
game (written in BASIC for his C-64) and modified it to run via his<BR>
modem. So you wandered about a house with a front yard (and some rather<BR>
bizarre rooms in the back of the building, once you found out how to<BR>
get to them). And you could leave notes in any "area" which others<BR>
could pick up and read.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if you could turn this interactive scout ship into a web page?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:45:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Niven universes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If that is the same universe containing Ringworld, it's already been a<BR>
> chaosium liscence.... Tho I myself would like to see more (especially if<BR>
> The Smoke Ring is also in the same universe...)<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Ringworld is part of Niven's "Known Space" universe. No<BR>
connection with Pournelle's CoDominium/Empire universe, which is where<BR>
"The Mote in God's Eye" is set. <BR>
<BR>
"Smoke Ring" is set in a different Niven Universe. There are only a<BR>
couple of other stories in it. "The State" is a *nasty* place.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:48:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Niven universes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:30:32 -0400 (EDT), "William F. Hostman"<BR>
> <aramis@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>I think the MiGE/CoD universe would be a great place to play, but it<BR>
>>>needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or<BR>
>>>Nivin rpg, or have any interest in rpging.<BR>
<BR>
Ever read "Dream Park" or the sequel(s?)? If that's not role-playing<BR>
games, then I don't know what is.<BR>
<BR>
Also, Pournelle, at least, has been involved with groups like the<BR>
Society for Creative Anachronism.<BR>
<BR>
>>>I'd also lay you odds<BR>
>>>that they would want a nice hefty licensing fee to use their<BR>
>>>background in anything commercial. <BR>
<BR>
Now *this* is a valid objection.<BR>
<BR>
> Ringworld and the Smoke Ring are in Larry Niven's Known Universe. The<BR>
> Codominion is in a separate universe. I like them both but they don't<BR>
> really go together.<BR>
<BR>
Smoke Ring isn't in "Known Space". It's in a different one. Same one as<BR>
"Rammer"?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:11:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ringworld is in Niven's "Known Space" universe with Beowolf Shaffer,<BR>
> the Kzin, Protectors and the Puppeteers.  The War World series about<BR>
> the Saurens is set here...right?<BR>
<BR>
Nope. The War World stuff is set in Pournelle's CoDominium/Empire universe.<BR>
<BR>
> Smoke Ring, *might* be in set in Known Space, but I don't think it<BR>
> is. There was a sequel to The Smoke Ring a few years ago, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
From internal evidence, it's set in the same universe as a short story<BR>
(I think the title was "Rammer") about a guy who had himself frozen<BR>
(corpsicle) and "woke up" to find out that his memories had been<BR>
extracted and placed in a condemned criminal's body. He's then trained<BR>
as a pilot for a Bussard Ramjet type ship. Which he proceeds to steal. <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the government "The State" in the short story is the same one<BR>
that sent the ship that settled the Smoke Ring.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:19:30 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Canada is still not a valid comparison.  There are still major cultural<BR>
>differences.  Biggest one.  What is the greatest hero ingrained in the two<BR>
>cultures?  Cowboys for US, RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) for Canada.<BR>
>Two entirely different cultural icons that affect the very roots of the two<BR>
>cultures outlooks.  The cowboy always "took care of business", while the<BR>
>Mountie was there to protect you.  The gun is deeply ingrained in the<BR>
>American culture, dating back to the War for Independance.<BR>
<BR>
Getting back to the original post that started this thread in the first<BR>
place: a plea to have one day of no violence, not even in the media, as<BR>
some sort of symbolic gesture. The response was whether violence in the<BR>
media was a valid correlation with violence in society. We Canadians watch<BR>
the same violent movies and TV shows that you Americans do, but our violent<BR>
crime rate is lower. The Japanese watch movies and tv shows etc. that are<BR>
even more violent than ours, yet their violent crime rate is lower as well.<BR>
The only logical conclusion: there is no correlation between violence in <BR>
the media and violence in society.<BR>
<BR>
So all of those wanna-be do-gooders who think that getting rid of violence<BR>
in the media will solve the problem (like the people who are now lobbying<BR>
the entertainment industry) are barking up the wrong tree.<BR>
<BR>
We just can't decide which is the *right* tree. I know where I stand on<BR>
the issue, but I am also willing to concede that the other side of the<BR>
argument may have a valid point. In the meantime, I'm staying on my side<BR>
of the 49th parallel, where (for whatever reason) it's safer. :)<BR>
<BR>
I don't suppose there's any more to be said on the issue...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 00:33:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
<BR>
On 10/30/99 at 10:17 PM,  "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Ringworld is in Niven's "Known Space" universe with Beowolf Shaffer,<BR>
>the Kzin, Protectors and the Puppeteers.  The War World series about<BR>
>the Saurens is set here...right?<BR>
<BR>
As soon as I saw this on the list I knew I was wrong.  The War World<BR>
series is set in the MiGE universe.  Sorry about that.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:40:24 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Who's that knocking on my door? (was Re: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
<BR>
>> I hate it when people do that. Sometimes they come by my house and ring<BR>
>> the doorbell -- I've taken to closing the door in their faces without<BR>
>> comment... I don't go around telling people to give up their religions and<BR>
>> become an athiest, and expect the same courtesy from others...<BR>
><BR>
>I don't like that approach because it turns people off and <BR>
>drives them away from something they might have been drawn to<BR>
>and gained great benefit from otherwise. (Yes, I'm Christian.)<BR>
<BR>
Which approach are you objecting to: their door-to-door salesmanship,<BR>
or my just closing the door in their faces? :)<BR>
<BR>
(No offence, but even if they didn't come a-knocking, I'd still be<BR>
an athiest. It's only a few (Jehovah's Witnesses, JC Latter Day Saints,<BR>
and a local evangelical church called the Victory Centre) that do the<BR>
door-knocking bit -- out of dozens of denominations. I've never seen<BR>
Jews or Buddhists go door-knocking...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: door-to-door Church of Elvis in the 54th century?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:45:58 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
<BR>
At 10:03 PM 1999 10 30 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 30 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1282<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
>All rights reserved.<BR>
><BR>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
><BR>
>Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
>Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant<BR>
jump d...<BR>
>Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
>Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
>Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
>Re: opengl95.exe<BR>
>Re: [OT] Cultural Differences<BR>
>Re: Interactive fiction<BR>
>Re: Traveller 3D Art Mailing List (was Re: 3D Art)<BR>
>Attention William Hostman<BR>
>Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
>Diving depths : some data points (was BD crush depths)<BR>
>Economics for fun and Profit<BR>
>Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant<BR>
jump drives (was Re: Just say "no" to lhyd))<BR>
>Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
><BR>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:50:02 +1000<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
>There are plenty of unauthorised GURPS versions of various writers'<BR>
>universes floating around the Net.  <BR>
<BR>
I know I saw a GURPS treatment of Traveller somewhere before SJG did<BR>
it for real. I've also seen GURPS treatments of Star Trek (heck, I once<BR>
co-wrote one myself!), Babylon 5, BattleTech, and even Isaac Asimov's<BR>
Foundation universe.<BR>
<BR>
(What I want to see in GURPS: John DeChancie's "Starrigger".)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 01:41:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Niven universes<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Niven universes<BR>
> Date: Sunday, 31 October, 1999 1:48 AM<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:30:32 -0400 (EDT), "William F. Hostman"<BR>
> > <aramis@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>I think the MiGE/CoD universe would be a great place to play, but it<BR>
> >>>needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or<BR>
> >>>Nivin rpg, or have any interest in rpging.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ever read "Dream Park" or the sequel(s?)? If that's not role-playing<BR>
> games, then I don't know what is.<BR>
<BR>
It's pretty bad role-playing, IMO.  It seemed to be a sort of Munchkin<BR>
LARPing to me, with no real attempt at playing a character.  For a much<BR>
better rendition of future role-playing, try John M. Ford's _Growing Up<BR>
Weightless_.  Gaming is not really the focus of the story like it is in<BR>
_Dream Park_, but the gaming is a lot more compelling to me.  <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: it's John M. Ford, what more do I have to say?<BR>
 <BR>
> >>>I'd also lay you odds<BR>
> >>>that they would want a nice hefty licensing fee to use their<BR>
> >>>background in anything commercial. <BR>
> <BR>
> Now *this* is a valid objection.<BR>
<BR>
True, although it doesn't prevent someone from doing a webbook adaptation. <BR>
(Hey, stop looking at me like that!)<BR>
<BR>
Tom Schoene<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 01:49:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
> Date: Sunday, 31 October, 1999 2:11 AM<BR>
> <BR>
> > Smoke Ring, *might* be in set in Known Space, but I don't think it<BR>
> > is. There was a sequel to The Smoke Ring a few years ago, IIRC.<BR>
> <BR>
> From internal evidence, it's set in the same universe as a short story<BR>
> (I think the title was "Rammer") about a guy who had himself frozen<BR>
> (corpsicle) and "woke up" to find out that his memories had been<BR>
> extracted and placed in a condemned criminal's body. He's then trained<BR>
> as a pilot for a Bussard Ramjet type ship. Which he proceeds to steal. <BR>
<BR>
That's the right title.  The short was also spun out into a novel called _A<BR>
World out of Time_.  Not Niven's best work, but interesting ideas.  A lot<BR>
of the thinking about Bussard ramjets form "Rammer" shows up in Known Space<BR>
as well.<BR>
<BR>
Tom Schoene<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:58:43 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
cos 90 wrote:<BR>
...<BR>
> Getting back to the original post that started this thread in the first<BR>
> place: a plea to have one day of no violence, not even in the media, as<BR>
> some sort of symbolic gesture. The response was whether violence in the<BR>
<BR>
I think the phrase "some sort of symbolic gesture" sums up the one day<BR>
of peace pretty well.  It's been an internet movement/fad for the last<BR>
month.  Well, only about 1/4 of the world has access to the internet (a<BR>
good percentage has never made a phone call), so that's why I'd say it's<BR>
symbolic.  These same people seem to be the ones that are currently<BR>
fighting against organized terrorism, for their freedom or national<BR>
sovereignty, or to defend the freedom of others.  To me the "One Day of<BR>
Peace" seems to come from someone secure in the liberties of free<BR>
information and safety that most of the world lives without.  <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Imagine a high population, low tech world where the luxuries<BR>
that most Imperial citizens are unknown.  Resources would be expensive,<BR>
labor cheap.  Even a good quality starport (say B type) would be run<BR>
down.  Off worlders would be hounded by beggars and merchants for their<BR>
money.  If it was a balkanized world small wars might be common. <BR>
Rebellions might also be frequent.  The Emperor might be seen by the<BR>
common person as evil since he "throws a lot of money around" trying to<BR>
influence local affairs; but, several locals would work for Imperial<BR>
development programs.  <BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 00:47:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Niven universes<BR>
<BR>
On 10/30/99 at 09:48 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>>>>I think the MiGE/CoD universe would be a great place to play, but it<BR>
>>>>needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or<BR>
>>>>Nivin rpg, or have any interest in rpging.<BR>
<BR>
>Ever read "Dream Park" or the sequel(s?)? If that's not role-playing<BR>
>games, then I don't know what is.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't saying they didn't know what it was, just that I've never<BR>
heard of either of them being all that involved in playing them.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, Pournelle, at least, has been involved with groups like the<BR>
>Society for Creative Anachronism.<BR>
<BR>
...well that is a *sort* of role playing, I suppose. <g><BR>
<BR>
>>>>I'd also lay you odds<BR>
>>>>that they would want a nice hefty licensing fee to use their<BR>
>>>>background in anything commercial. <BR>
<BR>
>Now *this* is a valid objection.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, commercial wasn't really on my mind, though.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:51:43 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace <BR>
<BR>
>>> >I've been asked really rude questions by people I had never seen before<BR>
>about pentacles, prayer beads, etc.  People stand outside of clinics and<BR>
>shout at you about medical procedures they disapprove of.<BR>
>>> ><BR>
>>> And we're not allowed to carry flamethrowers in public to deal with them<BR>
>either...<BR>
>>><BR>
>>Let's not go there, as I have diametrically opposed views.<BR>
>>We don't need flamethrowing on the TML over abortion.<BR>
>><BR>
>But no, I don't think anyone needs to have a flamethrower aimed at them.  <BR>
<BR>
Just for the record -- I *was* kidding about the flamethrower... what we<BR>
do in Canada is that the clinics get legal restraining orders against<BR>
protestors, which the local police have no problem enforcing if the<BR>
protestors get too close and/or try to interfere and/or interact with<BR>
people entering/leaving the clinic.  Edmonton has a free-standing clinic<BR>
of this type -- it's been a very long while since anything newsworthy <BR>
took place in its immediate vicinity...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:50:53 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace 2<BR>
<BR>
Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:44:35 -0700, "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>My point was that it's not a political issue outside of the US.  This kind<BR>
>of protest doesn't happen in Japan.<BR>
<BR>
In Japan the acceptable ways to voice opinions that don't conform are<BR>
more limited.  In Europe pro-life positions are less popular but they<BR>
certainly have people conducting such protests for other causes.<BR>
<BR>
>People who are opposed to abortion<BR>
>don't have abortions and leave other people alone.  I don't think people who<BR>
>yell at you or throw paint around outside of abortion clinics or fur stores<BR>
>should be attacked with flamethrowers.<BR>
<BR>
Note: Virtually everyone, except the most anarchistic, imposes their<BR>
beliefs on others.  I don't think anyone here would have the attitude<BR>
that people how are opposed to child abuse shouldn't just not abuse<BR>
children themselves and not try and push their beliefs on others.<BR>
Of course the attitude toward child abuse it widely held and has<BR>
thus been incorporated into law (so that one doesn't need to try<BR>
and do it personally).  Similarly, those who first started<BR>
protesting the war in Vietnam engaged in similar tactics, should<BR>
they have held off even if it prolong American involvement in the<BR>
war?<BR>
<BR>
So the question comes down to this.  If you were in a society that<BR>
condoned child abuse, would feel the right or duty to do something<BR>
to stop it?  If so, then the only difference is in what issues you<BR>
see as important.<BR>
<BR>
Society does need to maintain order and the activities of radicals<BR>
from a number of causes on both the right and the left cross the<BR>
line.  All sides need to obey the law.  But I think the idea that forceful<BR>
advocacy is a sign of moral inferiority is going too far.  Some of those<BR>
who oppose laws forbidding the peaceful picketing of abortion clinics are<BR>
veterans of the sixties who remember when such tactics were used against<BR>
them.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:56:41 -0600<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
>>>Yeah, well the Japanese don't eat cheese. So statistically, you could argue<BR>
>>>that we should give up cheese!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Your argument makes sense only if you can show a connection between<BR>
>>cheese and violence in the first place. If you're going to post arguments,<BR>
>>please at least try to make them intelligent ones. Not to mention, relevant<BR>
>>ones.<BR>
><BR>
>Notice the next line in my original post (which you didn't copy):<BR>
>correlation is not causation.<BR>
><BR>
>I was trying to sarcastically point out that a causal mechanism was needed,<BR>
>rather than just a statistical correlation.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see... a lot of violent crimes are commited with guns, so the <BR>
connection there is blatantly obvious. However, I know of no instances of<BR>
violent crimes being committed with cheese...<BR>
<BR>
"Put the gouda down and come out with your hands up!"<BR>
<BR>
"... was victim of a drive-by cheddar this morning..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 01:06:24 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Who's that knocking on my door? (was Re: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 10/31/99 5:42:21 AM !!!First Boot!!!, cos90@powersurfr.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< I've never seen<BR>
 Jews or Buddhists go door-knocking...<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Judaism doesn't believe in proselytizing. As a matter of fact, they often <BR>
make conversion very difficult (ask my wife) in order to make sure that the <BR>
person in question is serious about it, and is not doing it for the wrong <BR>
reasons (usually to please a spouse and not for themselves). As an amusing <BR>
sidenote, Hassidic Jews will often proselytize to other less observant or non <BR>
religious Jews to try and bring them back into the fold...I can't speak for <BR>
Buddhists...:-)<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Add Mel Brooks "Jews in space" skit from History of the world, Part <BR>
One to Traveller, The Silly Era, if you say the star shaped ship is a really <BR>
strange looking free trader...Oy!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:25:22 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld vs MiGE/CoD<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Oct 99, at 22:11, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From internal evidence, it's set in the same universe as a short story<BR>
> (I think the title was "Rammer") about a guy who had himself frozen<BR>
> (corpsicle) and "woke up" to find out that his memories had been<BR>
> extracted and placed in a condemned criminal's body. He's then trained as<BR>
> a pilot for a Bussard Ramjet type ship. Which he proceeds to steal. <BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway, the government "The State" in the short story is the same one that<BR>
> sent the ship that settled the Smoke Ring.<BR>
<BR>
_Rammer_ was later (I think) expanded into a novel called _A World Out <BR>
of Time_, in which the rammer, named Corbell(?) went back to Earth 3 <BR>
million years in the future after wipping around a big black hole in <BR>
the Mikly Way's centre. IIRC.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:25:22 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump drives (was Re: Just say "no" to lhyd))<BR>
<BR>
On 31 Oct 99, at 9:29, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>  > I think the MiGE/CoD universe would be a great place to play, but it ><BR>
> needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or > Nivin<BR>
> rpg, or have any interest in rpging.  I'd also lay you odds > that they<BR>
> would want a nice hefty licensing fee to use their > background in<BR>
> anything commercial.<BR>
> <BR>
> Larry Niven seemed fine with other people writing in the "Known Universe",<BR>
> there are quite a lot of people who have written "Known Univere" stories,<BR>
> and authors in general aren't heavily into "licensing" their universes,<BR>
> they are normally flattered if you ask to write something in their<BR>
> settiing, and are really only concerned with whether you voiolate their<BR>
> idea of what the universe is like, which usually means they ask for veto<BR>
> rights on publication or at least some sort of editorial control..<BR>
<BR>
Not only that but Niven was a co-author of the _Dream Park_ series, and <BR>
there was an RPG based on them out.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:25:22 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Oct 99, at 16:04, cos 90 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is also the case in Canada (ie, low population density) -- in fact,<BR>
> it's probably more so here than south of the border. Yet we don't have --<BR>
> or need -- anything like the Second Amendment, since our violent crime<BR>
> rate is lower. The question is, is our crime rate lower because we have<BR>
> fewer guns, or do Americans have more guns because their crime rate is<BR>
> higher? Chicken, or egg? :)<BR>
<BR>
I pick number 3 - there's (little to) no correlation. New Zealand has a <BR>
very high firearms ownership rate (though admitedly not of pistols), <BR>
and our violent crime rate is in the same range as Canada and <BR>
Australia's, not the US'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:06:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Alderson Drive -<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There ae severe conditions to entering and leaving the continuum universe.<BR>
> to emerge from the continuum universe you must exit with precisely the same<BR>
> potential energy (measured in terms of the fifth force, not gravity) as you<BR>
> entered. You must also have zero kinetic energy relative to a complex set of<BR>
> coordinates that we won't discuss here. [note, I'm not sure if this is just<BR>
> a handwave to avoid relativity, or if they really did come up with some set<BR>
> of coordinates - frankie]<BR>
<BR>
Knowing Pournelle, they did.<BR>
<BR>
> To get from the uantum to the continuum universe you must supply power, and<BR>
> this is available only in quantum terms. when you do this you turn yourself<BR>
> into a correspondence paeticle; go across the tramline; and come out at a<BR>
> point on the other side where your potential energy is equal to what you<BR>
> entered with, plus zero kinetic energy (in terms of the fifth force and<BR>
> comples reference axes [ there's that handwave again - frankie])<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> Travel by Alderson Drive consists of getting to the proper Alderson Point<BR>
> and turning on the Drive [ Note that the "technical" description implies<BR>
> there is a continuous "line" of such points between each pair of stars, but<BR>
> that seems to be ignored here - frankie]<BR>
<BR>
I think that the Zero-energy & "complex axes" rules combine to make<BR>
only two points along the line possible entry/exit points. <BR>
<BR>
For example, consider the required "energy level" to be a plane. The<BR>
tramline between a pair of stars will only intersect that plane two,<BR>
one, or zero times. <BR>
<BR>
If it intersects twice, you've got a pair of Alderson points. If it<BR>
intersects *once* you've got a useless Alderson point (the zero-energy plane<BR>
intersects the fifth-force "surface" at the mid point of the saddle).<BR>
If it intersects zero times, then all of the saddle is below the zero<BR>
point level, and thus, there's no usable tramline between those stars.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1284<BR>
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